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All right.

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 Welcome in another installment of

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Live Well with UCI Health,

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I'm Ryan Manno with iHeart Radio,

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the Ellen K Morning Show on KOST 103.5.

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Doctor Robert Katzer

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is our guest right now.

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I don't typically do this,

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but your introduction.

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I do need to read this

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because I don't want to mess

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anything up. You’re very impressive man.

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Doctor Katzer, UCI Health

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emergency medicine physician,

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professor in the UC

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Irvine School of Medicine's

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Department of Emergency Medicine,

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assistant director of the department's

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Wilderness Medicine

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fellowship program.

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You also teach wilderness

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medicine to medical students

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and residents.

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Did I get that right?

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Yeah. Thanks for having me. Oh.

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Thank you. That's a big resume.

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It's a lot you got going on.

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Let's first of all talk about this,

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and I'm coming

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in, like, super naive here.

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I did not know there was a

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Wilderness Medicine Fellowship program.

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I don't know that

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a lot of people know that.

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Yeah, yeah, there are

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Wilderness Medicine Fellowship

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programs throughout the country.

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And they're available

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to many different types of doctors.

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Obviously, we would assume

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that emergency physicians are

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likely a good fit

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for wilderness medicine,

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but certainly other types of doctors

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are involved as well.

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So what is your before

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we jump into some of the stuff

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the meat and potatoes here.

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What does a day look like for you?

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What's your day to day like?

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For me... lots of meetings.

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So lots of non-exciting stuff.

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Okay.

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As you expect, the administration.

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Yeah.

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But, you know,

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may have a shift in the ER.

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Okay,

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maybe working

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with the fire department

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several years.

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Having days

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where I'm working in the field

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with their rescue unit. Yeah.

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At times deployed to disaster zones

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for the federal government,

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which I don't do anymore.

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But previously,

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so a smattering of

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of different things. Definitely.

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Emergency medicine is a career

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where you have to,

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you know, wake up

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and look at your calendar for the day

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because it can be vastly different.

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What is emergency medicine like?

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What falls under that? What is that?

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Yeah.

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So emergency medicine

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was told by me before medical school

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by an emergency physician

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that managing anything

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they can get carried through the door

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for about two hours. Okay.

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So a very broad set of diseases

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and injuries.

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You have to assess. Yeah.

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Make sure you don't send anything home

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that needs emergency treatment

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and start that appropriate treatment

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or arrange for the follow up

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if the patient's safe for discharge.

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That's emergency medicine

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in a nutshell.

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That's cool.

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So, obviously every year I think

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the first snowfall or two we,

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we see on the news

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and we hear stories of people,

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you know,

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maybe not doing so well

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up in the mountains on a hike,

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getting stranded,

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getting lost, whatever.

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Or is that something

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that you deal with? Yeah.

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You know, for many years,

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I worked as a flight medic,

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air rescue unit in our area.

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And, so that unit, a unit

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would periodically involved

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in those in those missions.

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Yeah, for sure.

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What makes the, I guess our mountains,

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because we do have,

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you know, quite a vast

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topography here.

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What makes them more difficult,

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you know, and more dangerous,

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I guess, at this time of year. Yeah.

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I think this area is so unique.

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And, yeah,

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we have the best weather,

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you know,

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go toe to toe with anyone

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who wants to hike.

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Otherwise,

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but despite having the best weather,

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you know,

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we have these mountains,

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especially Baldy and San Gorgonio,

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that are nearby.

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And they have

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pretty significant elevation,

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given how close we are

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to the to the ocean

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and how close we are to major cities.

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And so

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it's very easy

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from a distance standpoint,

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from someone to go from 70 degrees to

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refrozen snow and ice.

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And perhaps

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easier here than

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a lot of places in the world.

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And I think that does add

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an element of danger

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that's more easily accessible

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than in other areas of the world.

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Did you call it Refrozen ice?

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Is that what you call it?

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Yeah. So, so yeah.

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Snow that's melted

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and then frozen over.

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So is that more dangerous?

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Yeah.

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I pick snow over ice any day.

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It's less slippery.

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But now... see, I'm like the don't

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don't put me anywhere near that.

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I don't I'm fine on the ground.

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Is there a bigger problem

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when the ice is covered by snow?

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You don't know what's under it.

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Is that a problem? Yeah.

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So refreezing,

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layering, all these are issues

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for traction and avalanches

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and all those inherent dangers.

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Like, I grew up in the Midwest.

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I think you said

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you were from the East Coast, right?

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Yeah. So, yeah.

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So I know that even to driving a car,

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you tend to not know

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what's under the snow.

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If it's snowing,

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you don't know if there's black

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ice under there. Right.

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So there's an element of danger

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just even driving.

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Yeah. For sure.

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And... but you do know

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the road underneath

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it is relatively flat

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based on construction standards.

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And that assurance

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doesn't exist in the mountains.

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I guess not.

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What's the problem I guess?

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Do you find that people,

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maybe bite off

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more than they can chew, so to speak?

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In getting out there,

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they don't even understand the risks.

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I could,

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you know, lay out

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what some of the possible things are.

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Yeah.

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The mountains are like the ocean.

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You could go on the ocean on a day

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and there is very little danger.

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You're on a boat, there's no waves.

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Everything's wonderful.

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And you could go back there

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a week later

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and be in a life

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threatening environment.

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And the mountains are similar

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to that with weather,

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especially if you compare

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hiking in the summer,

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to the

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same mountain in the winter

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after snow and ice. Yeah.

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And at that point,

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I wouldn't even call it hiking.

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I would call it now mountaineering.

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So same place, same location,

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different activity based on weather.

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And I think that's the big change.

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Is there an element

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of maybe bravado

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that gets in people's way.

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They get in their own way

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where it's like

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I know this mountain,

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I've done this before.

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But they did it in the summer

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and now it's

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an entirely different thing.

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Yeah, I could certainly speculate

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that someone says, hey,

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I've done that before. Yeah.

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Just like,

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you know, people

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go to the beach

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and they can swim

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when there's no rip current

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and there's low swell.

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They go to the same beach

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and maybe feel confident

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based on that experience

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and ends up being a very

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dangerous decision.

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I certainly think the fact

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that these mountains

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are so close to the city also.

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Yes,

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may make

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people feel a little more comfortable,

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like it's a false sense of security.

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We're not on Everest. Yeah.

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I can't speak for people

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that have had issues of course.

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But you know,

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we could certainly speculate

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that could be a problem. Yeah.

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So okay,

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let's say someone's going to go go,

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you know

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mountaineer on one of these things.

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What would you recommend

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people take

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before they start this thing.

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What special equipment

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or set of skills. Yeah.

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So skills are, a big part of this.

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And I'm certainly

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not a knowledgeable

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mountaineer myself.

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But I think skills

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and using the skills

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with the equipment.

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So what are the big equipment items?

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Anywhere where you are

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far from civilization,

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and you may need emergency assistance.

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Mountain.

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No mountain snow, no snow.

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Having a GPS beacon,

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whether that be a PLB

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personal locator beacon or another

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two-way satellite messenger

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that allows you to request help,

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or one of the newer phones

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that is equipped

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with satellite capabilities.

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That's a must,

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because

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when you are out in the wilderness,

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a lot of times

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there is no cell signal. Right?

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And we live all day. All night.

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We assume our cell

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phones are going to work

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and they're going to solve

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all of problems.

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Yes, until there's no signal

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and there's no battery. Yeah.

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And oh, by the way,

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when there's no signal,

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your battery works

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really hard to find a signal

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and then there's no battery.

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And and even if you're out there

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and there is a signal based on how the

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location works with triangulating

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towers,

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the accuracy of that location is

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not the accuracy

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you get with Uber or with your,

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Google Maps,

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or those opt-in apps.

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So it is less accurate.

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So if I were to try to rescue

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someone based on a cell phone

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location versus a satellite position,

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ten times out of ten,

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satellite position is going to allow me

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to find them faster.

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Oh, so that is, on all weather advice,

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I think.

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But in regards

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to once

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we're dealing with snow

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and ice and medium-angle

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or adjacent medium-angle terrain,

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you really need to have crampons.

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You need to have an ice

00:08:04:11 - 00:08:06:12

ax to arrest a fall,

00:08:06:12 - 00:08:10:04

a helmet, and you need to have time

00:08:10:06 - 00:08:12:01

spent using that equipment

00:08:12:01 - 00:08:13:15

in a non-life-threatening event.

00:08:13:15 - 00:08:14:22

So you can't just or

00:08:14:22 - 00:08:15:18

you wouldn't recommend

00:08:15:18 - 00:08:16:12

someone just order

00:08:16:12 - 00:08:19:04

all this stuff and go do it. No.

00:08:19:04 - 00:08:20:14

It's like anything else in life.

00:08:20:14 - 00:08:21:05

Yeah, right.

00:08:21:05 - 00:08:22:04

You gotta

00:08:22:04 - 00:08:23:08

we all start bad at things,

00:08:23:08 - 00:08:25:00

we practice, and we get better. Yeah.

00:08:25:00 - 00:08:25:09

Right. Yeah.

00:08:25:09 - 00:08:26:16

So how do you practice? Where do you.

00:08:26:16 - 00:08:27:00

How do you

00:08:27:00 - 00:08:27:20

how do you start using this?

00:08:27:20 - 00:08:28:17

So you can use that

00:08:28:17 - 00:08:29:15

equipment in an area

00:08:29:15 - 00:08:32:09

that is low angle to get used to it.

00:08:32:09 - 00:08:33:10

Medium angle

00:08:33:10 - 00:08:34:22

with no consequences

00:08:34:22 - 00:08:36:07

if you lose control.

00:08:36:07 - 00:08:37:03

Those are types, areas

00:08:37:03 - 00:08:38:15

we can train on it. Yeah.

00:08:38:15 - 00:08:39:04

And I think

00:08:39:04 - 00:08:40:15

one thing that I think

00:08:40:15 - 00:08:43:03

makes a lot of people nervous is

00:08:43:03 - 00:08:45:17

the use of micro spikes.

00:08:45:19 - 00:08:47:07

Micro spikes are

00:08:47:07 - 00:08:48:05

a traction

00:08:48:05 - 00:08:48:14

device

00:08:48:14 - 00:08:51:22

you can put on essentially any shoe,

00:08:52:00 - 00:08:54:17

and they may give a false sense

00:08:54:17 - 00:08:57:12

of security when compared to crampons.

00:08:57:12 - 00:09:01:02

Crampons are very sharp.

00:09:01:04 - 00:09:03:15

Very large traction device

00:09:03:15 - 00:09:04:12

that attaches

00:09:04:12 - 00:09:07:12

to a compatible mountaineering boot.

00:09:07:13 - 00:09:09:09

And they give a much better grip

00:09:09:09 - 00:09:10:19

than micro spikes.

00:09:10:19 - 00:09:12:04

Micro spikes are okay

00:09:12:04 - 00:09:13:20

walking down the sidewalk

00:09:13:20 - 00:09:15:20

in the Midwest after a storm. Yeah.

00:09:15:20 - 00:09:17:22

Trying to take the trash out there

00:09:17:22 - 00:09:19:12

where the risk is relatively low.

00:09:19:12 - 00:09:21:11

Yeah.

00:09:21:11 - 00:09:23:18

If you look at

00:09:23:18 - 00:09:24:13

many of the people

00:09:24:13 - 00:09:25:23

have had issues in the mountains,

00:09:25:23 - 00:09:27:23

a lot of them are using micro spikes.

00:09:27:23 - 00:09:30:15

I can't place a causal relationship,

00:09:30:15 - 00:09:32:03

but there's certainly an association,

00:09:32:03 - 00:09:34:00

and I wouldn't use them,

00:09:34:00 - 00:09:34:16

and rely on them

00:09:34:16 - 00:09:35:20

for traction in the mountains.

00:09:35:20 - 00:09:37:06

What are some other mistakes

00:09:37:06 - 00:09:38:12

that you've found

00:09:38:12 - 00:09:39:20

that people make common mistakes.

00:09:39:20 - 00:09:40:05

Yeah.

00:09:40:05 - 00:09:42:23

You also look at lost person behavior.

00:09:42:23 - 00:09:45:03

And there's a whole area of science of

00:09:45:03 - 00:09:46:18

how do people make decisions

00:09:46:18 - 00:09:47:23

and what type of people make

00:09:47:23 - 00:09:49:04

what type of decisions.

00:09:49:04 - 00:09:51:05

There's patterns of a group of people

00:09:51:05 - 00:09:52:03

go up

00:09:52:03 - 00:09:54:12

and one person continues

00:09:54:12 - 00:09:56:03

and the rest of the group goes down.

00:09:56:03 - 00:09:56:15

Yeah.

00:09:56:15 - 00:10:00:10

And we often hear, this is the people.

00:10:00:10 - 00:10:01:16

They get lost.

00:10:01:16 - 00:10:02:09

So I think

00:10:02:09 - 00:10:03:15

if you're in a group of people

00:10:03:15 - 00:10:04:19

and maybe the group's

00:10:04:19 - 00:10:05:23

thinking about turning around,

00:10:05:23 - 00:10:07:18

maybe the whole group should turn around,

00:10:07:18 - 00:10:09:12

maybe that should be a key.

00:10:09:12 - 00:10:11:06

And I think when you're planning,

00:10:11:06 - 00:10:12:21

you got to plan out the weather,

00:10:12:21 - 00:10:15:10

right? That's your risk. Plan your risk.

00:10:15:10 - 00:10:16:17

And you also want to say, hey,

00:10:16:17 - 00:10:17:19

these are our criteria.

00:10:17:19 - 00:10:19:02

If we hit this criteria,

00:10:19:02 - 00:10:21:00

we're turning around. That way

00:10:21:00 - 00:10:21:16

in the moment.

00:10:21:16 - 00:10:22:13

You don't have to make

00:10:22:13 - 00:10:23:15

that emotional decision.

00:10:23:15 - 00:10:25:10

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

00:10:25:10 - 00:10:27:02

Because, maybe one person

00:10:27:02 - 00:10:27:18

feels a certain way

00:10:27:18 - 00:10:28:12

about something, right.

00:10:28:12 - 00:10:30:22

And but if you're as decided

00:10:30:22 - 00:10:32:05

as a group, right.

00:10:32:05 - 00:10:35:05

It eliminates that whole situation.

00:10:35:09 - 00:10:36:17

I like winning,

00:10:36:17 - 00:10:38:04

And I don’t like turning around.

00:10:38:04 - 00:10:39:06

And a lot of people are like that.

00:10:39:06 - 00:10:39:17

I know,

00:10:39:17 - 00:10:40:21

and sometimes

00:10:40:21 - 00:10:41:11

coming home

00:10:41:11 - 00:10:42:23

is more important than winning. Yeah.

00:10:42:23 - 00:10:44:04

And it's really important

00:10:44:04 - 00:10:47:04

to set those criteria before you leave

00:10:47:04 - 00:10:48:14

and then stay disciplined to those.

00:10:48:14 - 00:10:49:12

And that may be a life

00:10:49:12 - 00:10:50:15

saving technique.

00:10:50:15 - 00:10:52:10

There is a book written by

00:10:52:10 - 00:10:54:07

the doctor who worked for a long time

00:10:54:07 - 00:10:55:20

at the Grand Canyon Clinic,

00:10:55:20 - 00:10:57:03

and it's called Death in the Canyon,

00:10:57:03 - 00:10:58:05

and it's a really interesting book.

00:10:58:05 - 00:10:58:17

I read it

00:10:58:17 - 00:10:59:13

when I was working

00:10:59:13 - 00:11:00:12

at the clinic briefly,

00:11:00:12 - 00:11:01:13

because it was kind of interesting

00:11:01:13 - 00:11:03:07

to read from work at the Canyon.

00:11:03:07 - 00:11:06:20

Yeah, I had thought that more people

00:11:06:22 - 00:11:08:15

would increase the risk of death

00:11:08:15 - 00:11:10:00

than the canyon, actually.

00:11:10:00 - 00:11:11:20

Solo hikers?

00:11:11:20 - 00:11:13:03

Why, that's more dangerous,

00:11:13:03 - 00:11:16:03

I don't know, maybe one person says,

00:11:16:07 - 00:11:17:13

and that gives the other person

00:11:17:13 - 00:11:18:11

ability to say, okay,

00:11:18:11 - 00:11:19:05

we'll turn around.

00:11:19:05 - 00:11:19:19

Okay, I don't know.

00:11:19:19 - 00:11:20:21

But certainly

00:11:20:21 - 00:11:23:01

being a young male, hiking alone,

00:11:23:01 - 00:11:23:20

at least in the Grand

00:11:23:20 - 00:11:25:04

Canyon, was an independent risk

00:11:25:04 - 00:11:27:16

factor for a fatal expedition.

00:11:27:16 - 00:11:30:07

So that's really interesting. Yeah.

00:11:30:07 - 00:11:31:05

What about dress?

00:11:31:05 - 00:11:32:14

What do you recommend for? Yeah.

00:11:32:14 - 00:11:33:19

So when you're...

00:11:33:19 - 00:11:34:19

whenever you're out and about

00:11:34:19 - 00:11:35:06

and especially

00:11:35:06 - 00:11:36:07

you're going to elevation,

00:11:36:07 - 00:11:37:06

you're exerting yourself.

00:11:37:06 - 00:11:39:02

It's all about layering, right.

00:11:39:02 - 00:11:41:08

We know that as the elevation changes,

00:11:41:08 - 00:11:42:15

the temperature is going to change.

00:11:42:15 - 00:11:44:18

Your level of activity is going to change.

00:11:44:18 - 00:11:46:00

Your amount of warmth.

00:11:46:00 - 00:11:46:11

And so

00:11:46:11 - 00:11:48:03

you want to have a lot of layers

00:11:48:03 - 00:11:48:21

that you can adjust

00:11:48:21 - 00:11:49:22

throughout the day.

00:11:49:22 - 00:11:50:23

And when you're layering

00:11:50:23 - 00:11:52:08

clothing, there's

00:11:52:08 - 00:11:54:04

three layers in general.

00:11:54:04 - 00:11:55:20

There's the base layer,

00:11:55:20 - 00:11:57:11

the base layer,

00:11:57:11 - 00:11:59:01

you know, your thermals, long johns.

00:11:59:01 - 00:12:01:08

They're going to wick water away.

00:12:01:08 - 00:12:02:07

That's going to your base.

00:12:02:07 - 00:12:03:18

And then your insulation layer,

00:12:03:18 - 00:12:06:09

which is often an insulation layers.

00:12:06:09 - 00:12:08:01

So now we're talking about,

00:12:08:01 - 00:12:11:11

you know, sweaters, shirts, fleece.

00:12:11:13 - 00:12:13:18

And then finally you have your shell.

00:12:13:18 - 00:12:16:00

And the shell is like your skin.

00:12:16:00 - 00:12:16:21

It protects you

00:12:16:21 - 00:12:17:17

from the outer elements.

00:12:17:17 - 00:12:18:13

So it protects you

00:12:18:13 - 00:12:21:13

from rain and wind, essentially.

00:12:21:14 - 00:12:22:17

And then you can come up

00:12:22:17 - 00:12:23:15

with any combination

00:12:23:15 - 00:12:24:06

of those three,

00:12:24:06 - 00:12:26:01

both top and bottom,

00:12:26:01 - 00:12:28:07

that allows you to stay versatile.

00:12:28:07 - 00:12:29:09

From the cold

00:12:29:09 - 00:12:32:00

morning to the hot afternoon

00:12:32:03 - 00:12:33:10

to the cool evenings

00:12:33:10 - 00:12:34:01

you're descending.

00:12:34:01 - 00:12:36:07

What about in summer?

00:12:36:07 - 00:12:37:00

I mean, how

00:12:37:00 - 00:12:38:18

what advice would you give someone?

00:12:38:18 - 00:12:39:21

Let's take away the elements

00:12:39:21 - 00:12:40:23

right of the winter, right?

00:12:40:23 - 00:12:41:08

Like what

00:12:41:08 - 00:12:42:16

would you do to prepare for a hike

00:12:42:16 - 00:12:43:15

no matter the time of year?

00:12:43:15 - 00:12:44:05

What are some things

00:12:44:05 - 00:12:45:19

people need to be mindful of

00:12:45:19 - 00:12:46:08

and check.

00:12:46:08 - 00:12:47:07

So we'll circle

00:12:47:07 - 00:12:49:12

back to the GPS device.

00:12:49:12 - 00:12:49:18

All right.

00:12:49:18 - 00:12:51:19

That is those work really well.

00:12:51:19 - 00:12:53:13

The locations rescue teams go for.

00:12:53:13 - 00:12:56:17

Those are better than anything else.

00:12:56:19 - 00:12:59:19

Water, food, in case things don't go well.

00:12:59:19 - 00:13:01:00

How much?

00:13:01:00 - 00:13:02:06

That is all gonna depend on

00:13:02:06 - 00:13:03:07

how far you're going,

00:13:03:07 - 00:13:04:16

how hot it is. Yeah.

00:13:04:16 - 00:13:06:02

And whether or not you're bringing

00:13:06:02 - 00:13:08:13

a device to purify water. Right.

00:13:08:13 - 00:13:09:18

So that's going to vary

00:13:09:18 - 00:13:11:11

pretty heavily.

00:13:11:11 - 00:13:12:12

But you do want to have,

00:13:12:12 - 00:13:14:08

you wanna have salty snacks

00:13:14:08 - 00:13:15:22

that you can eat.

00:13:15:22 - 00:13:17:14

In case you get stuck.

00:13:17:14 - 00:13:18:20

And a light

00:13:18:20 - 00:13:22:03

that can strobe is really important.

00:13:22:05 - 00:13:23:16

Locating a strobing

00:13:23:16 - 00:13:26:23

light from a helicopter is very easy

00:13:26:23 - 00:13:27:18

compared to anything.

00:13:27:18 - 00:13:29:12

It is actually really challenging

00:13:29:12 - 00:13:30:16

from a helicopter

00:13:30:16 - 00:13:31:14

to find someone

00:13:31:14 - 00:13:32:18

on the side of a mountain

00:13:32:18 - 00:13:34:14

that’s covered in trees

00:13:34:14 - 00:13:35:05

with just

00:13:35:05 - 00:13:36:15

who's wearing brown

00:13:36:15 - 00:13:38:05

and green or whatnot.

00:13:38:05 - 00:13:40:13

But if they are strobing out,

00:13:40:13 - 00:13:43:01

that shows up really far away

00:13:43:01 - 00:13:45:23

and it is an excellent, cheap tool.

00:13:45:23 - 00:13:47:15

That's, I would highly recommend

00:13:47:15 - 00:13:48:19

wherever you go in the wilderness.

00:13:48:19 - 00:13:49:20

You just mentioned the brown

00:13:49:20 - 00:13:50:15

and green thing

00:13:50:15 - 00:13:52:02

is, there is someone who's done

00:13:52:02 - 00:13:52:12

this right.

00:13:52:12 - 00:13:53:19

You have to find these people.

00:13:53:19 - 00:13:55:13

Is there a color that you like?

00:13:55:13 - 00:13:56:02

And that might be

00:13:56:02 - 00:13:57:09

an ignorant question,

00:13:57:09 - 00:13:57:21

but is there a

00:13:57:21 - 00:13:58:13

is there a color

00:13:58:13 - 00:13:59:07

that you would recommend

00:13:59:07 - 00:14:00:00

someone wear that you like?

00:14:00:00 - 00:14:00:16

I picked that up.

00:14:00:16 - 00:14:01:21

Well, I mean, most colors

00:14:01:21 - 00:14:02:15

where you're like, ooh,

00:14:02:15 - 00:14:03:13

that's pretty bright.

00:14:03:13 - 00:14:04:22

Yeah, yeah, that's it.

00:14:04:22 - 00:14:05:21

Yeah. Right. Okay.

00:14:05:21 - 00:14:06:14

You know,

00:14:06:14 - 00:14:07:17

so no matter how you feel

00:14:07:17 - 00:14:09:02

like how you look leaving.

00:14:09:02 - 00:14:09:15

Right.

00:14:09:15 - 00:14:10:13

Like, you know,

00:14:10:13 - 00:14:11:04

that's going to help

00:14:11:04 - 00:14:12:12

in case of an emergency. Yeah.

00:14:12:12 - 00:14:13:22

I give people a hard time.

00:14:13:22 - 00:14:14:19

I'm like, hey, man,

00:14:14:19 - 00:14:15:12

looks like you're

00:14:15:12 - 00:14:16:15

you're dressed to get found.

00:14:16:15 - 00:14:17:03

That's good.

00:14:17:03 - 00:14:18:16

I may appreciate that someday.

00:14:18:16 - 00:14:20:07

That's it. What if

00:14:20:07 - 00:14:22:13

someone gets lost?

00:14:22:13 - 00:14:25:13

They're by themself.

00:14:25:16 - 00:14:26:20

Like, what would you tell

00:14:26:20 - 00:14:29:20

someone is the first thing to do,

00:14:29:23 - 00:14:30:05

right?

00:14:30:05 - 00:14:30:14

If you

00:14:30:14 - 00:14:32:09

if you find yourself alone, stranded,

00:14:32:09 - 00:14:33:23

you're you're pretty screwed.

00:14:33:23 - 00:14:35:16

What is the first piece of advice

00:14:35:16 - 00:14:36:22

you would give somebody. Yeah.

00:14:36:22 - 00:14:39:00

So you need to try

00:14:39:00 - 00:14:40:19

to take some deep breaths

00:14:40:19 - 00:14:42:16

and slow down your emotional state.

00:14:42:16 - 00:14:43:01

Okay.

00:14:43:01 - 00:14:44:21

What happens when people get lost?

00:14:44:21 - 00:14:46:18

So when people are hiking,

00:14:46:18 - 00:14:48:09

what happens, you know,

00:14:48:09 - 00:14:51:09

provided it's not a fall at some point

00:14:51:09 - 00:14:53:07

they either made a wrong turn

00:14:53:07 - 00:14:55:23

or didn't make a right turn.

00:14:55:23 - 00:14:57:20

And usually

00:14:57:20 - 00:14:58:19

they're not aware of that

00:14:58:19 - 00:14:59:09

at that moment.

00:14:59:09 - 00:15:00:09

But there's a moment,

00:15:00:09 - 00:15:02:14

some time in the future

00:15:02:14 - 00:15:03:21

where you realize you're lost.

00:15:03:21 - 00:15:06:09

You realize, I made a mistake. Yeah.

00:15:06:09 - 00:15:09:15

And that moment is an emotional one

00:15:09:15 - 00:15:11:16

because it comes with a sense of panic

00:15:11:16 - 00:15:15:02

and doom and fear and we often don't

00:15:15:02 - 00:15:16:12

make the best decisions

00:15:16:12 - 00:15:19:08

under panic, doom and fear.

00:15:19:08 - 00:15:21:11

And so you need to

00:15:21:13 - 00:15:23:19

do an assessment.

00:15:23:19 - 00:15:25:09

And a lot of times,

00:15:25:09 - 00:15:26:03

if you can figure out

00:15:26:03 - 00:15:27:19

how to turn around,

00:15:27:19 - 00:15:29:00

that's going to be your best move.

00:15:29:00 - 00:15:30:02

Okay.

00:15:30:02 - 00:15:31:02

A lot of the time

00:15:31:02 - 00:15:32:11

when you look at this behavior,

00:15:32:11 - 00:15:35:00

people will instead double down

00:15:35:00 - 00:15:36:03

and they'll push forward.

00:15:36:03 - 00:15:38:18

And that is usually the wrong answer.

00:15:38:18 - 00:15:39:16

And then

00:15:39:16 - 00:15:41:13

they will continue to do that.

00:15:41:13 - 00:15:44:07

So if you can move backwards,

00:15:44:07 - 00:15:45:14

if you have communications

00:15:45:14 - 00:15:46:21

and the time to reach out, say,

00:15:46:21 - 00:15:48:09

hey, this is what's going on,

00:15:48:09 - 00:15:49:17

that's really important.

00:15:49:17 - 00:15:52:03

But if you're unsure

00:15:52:03 - 00:15:53:07

most of the time staying put

00:15:53:07 - 00:15:54:09

is going to be the best thing

00:15:54:09 - 00:15:56:19

then trying to get communication,

00:15:56:19 - 00:15:58:23

because you're closer to your point

00:15:58:23 - 00:16:00:23

of last known.

00:16:00:23 - 00:16:02:01

Yeah. At that.

00:16:02:01 - 00:16:02:16

If you're ever going

00:16:02:16 - 00:16:03:11

to be going forward.

00:16:03:11 - 00:16:04:20

That's a great point, right? Yeah.

00:16:04:20 - 00:16:06:13

And that brings up another thing.

00:16:06:13 - 00:16:07:15

Before you leave,

00:16:07:15 - 00:16:08:08

tell somebody,

00:16:08:08 - 00:16:10:11

hey, this is where I'm going.

00:16:10:11 - 00:16:11:21

This is where I'm back by.

00:16:11:21 - 00:16:13:14

And if I'm not back by then,

00:16:13:14 - 00:16:15:11

you need to call some people. Yeah.

00:16:15:11 - 00:16:16:02

Right. Right.

00:16:16:02 - 00:16:16:08

So, you know,

00:16:16:08 - 00:16:17:10

if you don't have communication

00:16:17:10 - 00:16:18:07

in that moment,

00:16:18:07 - 00:16:20:05

if you plan ahead

00:16:20:05 - 00:16:20:21

in the back of your mind,

00:16:20:21 - 00:16:21:08

you're like, hey,

00:16:21:08 - 00:16:22:16

when I'm overdue, okay,

00:16:22:16 - 00:16:24:09

that's going to trigger a response.

00:16:24:09 - 00:16:26:08

So there will be a response

00:16:26:08 - 00:16:27:13

after this amount of time,

00:16:27:13 - 00:16:29:11

what would your recommendation be?

00:16:29:11 - 00:16:30:18

Say you're you're out there and you're

00:16:30:18 - 00:16:31:18

you're stuck and it's,

00:16:31:18 - 00:16:32:14

you know, nighttime.

00:16:32:14 - 00:16:34:10

You got to go to sleep.

00:16:34:12 - 00:16:35:19

Do you have any sleep advice

00:16:35:19 - 00:16:36:04

for people

00:16:36:04 - 00:16:37:01

like the best place

00:16:37:01 - 00:16:40:07

to try to find shelter for sleep or

00:16:40:09 - 00:16:41:21

you know, what to wear or what

00:16:41:21 - 00:16:43:01

not to do? I don't know, yeah.

00:16:43:01 - 00:16:44:21

Shelter is important.

00:16:44:21 - 00:16:47:00

So shelter is being protected

00:16:47:00 - 00:16:50:05

from, wind, water at

00:16:50:05 - 00:16:52:23

daytime sun, areas of rockslide

00:16:52:23 - 00:16:53:12

or other hazards.

00:16:53:12 - 00:16:55:05

You want to move away from that? Yeah.

00:16:55:05 - 00:16:56:22

Depending on the fire risk.

00:16:56:22 - 00:16:58:20

This is kind of a plus minus.

00:16:58:20 - 00:16:59:12

You know, starting

00:16:59:12 - 00:17:00:18

a fire may be important,

00:17:00:18 - 00:17:03:15

or it may be a risk that is

00:17:03:15 - 00:17:05:05

too large to mitigate. Yep.

00:17:05:05 - 00:17:08:05

Given our current ecosystem.

00:17:08:07 - 00:17:09:03

So those would be the things.

00:17:09:03 - 00:17:10:02

And then think about

00:17:10:02 - 00:17:10:19

how am I going to get

00:17:10:19 - 00:17:12:07

water and food and,

00:17:12:07 - 00:17:14:09

and manage those items, and

00:17:14:09 - 00:17:16:07

how am I going to signal.

00:17:16:09 - 00:17:16:18

Yeah.

00:17:16:18 - 00:17:17:04

If there

00:17:17:04 - 00:17:18:21

are crews coming back to your

00:17:18:21 - 00:17:21:16

strobe light. Are animals a risk?

00:17:21:16 - 00:17:23:01

Sure.

00:17:23:01 - 00:17:24:01

There’re a risk, I think.

00:17:24:01 - 00:17:24:21

How big of a risk is

00:17:24:21 - 00:17:26:06

going to depend on where you're at.

00:17:26:06 - 00:17:27:22

Okay.

00:17:27:22 - 00:17:30:16

I think our our emotional behavior

00:17:30:16 - 00:17:32:15

is probably a bigger risk than animals

00:17:32:15 - 00:17:33:21

and making rash decisions.

00:17:33:21 - 00:17:34:13

So, yeah,

00:17:34:13 - 00:17:35:16

if we're going to address things

00:17:35:16 - 00:17:38:09

in order for appearance, stay calm.

00:17:38:09 - 00:17:39:12

Having that plan,

00:17:39:12 - 00:17:40:05

you know,

00:17:40:05 - 00:17:40:13

don't worry

00:17:40:13 - 00:17:41:11

about the animal right now.

00:17:41:11 - 00:17:42:22

Yeah. Stay calm. Have a plan.

00:17:42:22 - 00:17:43:06

All right.

00:17:43:06 - 00:17:44:15

Let's let's get off the mountains.

00:17:44:15 - 00:17:45:22

Where is your favorite place?

00:17:45:22 - 00:17:46:19

Where would you recommend?

00:17:46:19 - 00:17:47:16

You know someone like me?

00:17:47:16 - 00:17:48:08

Not an adventurer.

00:17:48:08 - 00:17:49:11

I'm sure people watching this that are

00:17:49:11 - 00:17:51:00

hikers are like, this guy's an idiot.

00:17:51:00 - 00:17:51:22

I am, I've never.

00:17:51:22 - 00:17:52:21

I've never done any of this.

00:17:52:21 - 00:17:53:19

Where do you recommend

00:17:53:19 - 00:17:55:08

people just stay safe?

00:17:55:08 - 00:17:57:11

I mean, there's a lot of really fun

00:17:57:11 - 00:18:00:08

hiking trails in Orange County. Okay.

00:18:00:08 - 00:18:02:16

I love Crystal Cove State Park.

00:18:02:16 - 00:18:03:21

Crystal Cove? Yeah. Got it.

00:18:03:21 - 00:18:05:19

That's really fun.

00:18:05:19 - 00:18:07:03

There is an adjacent

00:18:07:03 - 00:18:08:03

regional park system

00:18:08:03 - 00:18:09:15

right next to it with great

00:18:09:15 - 00:18:11:08

hiking and mountain biking.

00:18:11:08 - 00:18:13:00

I'm up there as much as I can be.

00:18:13:04 - 00:18:14:03

You want to find a place

00:18:14:03 - 00:18:16:02

where it feels beautiful,

00:18:16:02 - 00:18:17:00

but you're not far

00:18:17:00 - 00:18:18:04

from people and stuff,

00:18:18:04 - 00:18:19:05

and that's a great place

00:18:19:05 - 00:18:20:18

for you to go out and make mistakes.

00:18:20:18 - 00:18:22:14

And not have consequences. Yeah.

00:18:22:14 - 00:18:23:04

Anything else

00:18:23:04 - 00:18:24:12

you want people to know, right?

00:18:24:12 - 00:18:26:22

Any, like, strong feelings.

00:18:26:22 - 00:18:28:21

Check the weather. Yep.

00:18:28:21 - 00:18:30:03

Let people know where you're going

00:18:30:03 - 00:18:30:20

when you're, you know, do

00:18:30:20 - 00:18:31:20

have your light,

00:18:31:20 - 00:18:33:01

get your satellite system.

00:18:33:01 - 00:18:34:10

If you're going to be far off,

00:18:34:10 - 00:18:36:14

have some water,

00:18:36:14 - 00:18:38:00

footwear with ankle support.

00:18:38:00 - 00:18:39:03

Yep. Good.

00:18:39:03 - 00:18:40:02

Over the years,

00:18:40:02 - 00:18:41:01

the number of people

00:18:41:01 - 00:18:43:05

I have rescued from mountains

00:18:43:05 - 00:18:43:15

that are aren't

00:18:43:15 - 00:18:45:20

wearing shoes is mind-boggling to me.

00:18:45:20 - 00:18:47:14

Really, it is up to 20%.

00:18:47:14 - 00:18:48:17

And I always ask them, like,

00:18:48:17 - 00:18:50:11

what happened to your shoes?

00:18:50:11 - 00:18:51:12

You know,

00:18:51:12 - 00:18:53:08

and I think just having decent foot

00:18:53:08 - 00:18:55:12

footwear, not flip-flops,

00:18:55:12 - 00:18:56:11

ankle protection

00:18:56:11 - 00:18:59:03

and just keeping it on your feet,

00:18:59:05 - 00:18:59:23

So helpful.

00:18:59:23 - 00:19:01:09

Yeah, it's obviously mobility

00:19:01:09 - 00:19:03:01

doesn't work so well on bare feet.

00:19:03:01 - 00:19:03:23

Yeah.

00:19:03:23 - 00:19:06:00

Listen, I never in my life

00:19:06:00 - 00:19:07:12

intend to put myself in a situation

00:19:07:12 - 00:19:08:09

where I need to be rescued.

00:19:08:09 - 00:19:09:08

If I do,

00:19:09:08 - 00:19:10:09

I don't want to see any other face.

00:19:10:09 - 00:19:11:03

But yours.

00:19:11:03 - 00:19:12:09

I want you swooping in.

00:19:12:09 - 00:19:13:12

You're going to take care of me,

00:19:13:12 - 00:19:14:05

Doctor Katzer.

00:19:14:05 - 00:19:15:00

Thank you so much.

00:19:15:00 - 00:19:15:23

Thanks for your time.